LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-02 AT 09:08 AM (PST)
Corvus,
I have enjoyed our discussion so far. I'll briefly summarize where I think we are at and then will move into the extended detail that I would like to explore with you. In earlier discussions we were talking about how God decides who receives everlasting life. Our discussion was focused on the great crowd, since that is what the vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses are, including yourself. You answered that God will have two criteria in view when judging the great crowd in order to bestow everlasting life or judgment on them. You said that it was:1) His knowing that your heart is rightly disposed towards him, thus his choosing of you. (You could call this his election of you.)
2) Your faith in him (further being defined as an active faith).
You made clear that the works your faith produces are not the grounds of God's judging in a strict sense, but are simply the fruit of a real and living faith. In seeing the criteria you have identified, I see only one thing coming from you in the equation. Namely faith. So in the strict sense, your salvation (your final salvation when you will receive everlasting life - not the events leading up to that point) could be described as "salvation by faith". At least that's what I understand to be your own personal position.
I have heard time and time again that Jehovah's Witnesses are justified by their works. Many Jehovah's Witnesses, (and I'm guessing this includes you) object to that characterization, saying that it is a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of your belief. Because of the exchanges that I've read in the past on this subject, and my own special interest in the question of how we have peace with God, I've done some extended research into this. My own interest is fueled by the great theological battles waged during the reformation about this question.
Let me make clear that this post will focus primarily on the final salvation of the great crowd. We can discuss the salvation of the remnant at a later time if you so desire. I'm focusing on the great crowd because it has more direct applicability to most people. The remnant is, you might say, the exception to the rule and thus (in this discussion) a side issue. While I have researched both groups and think I have a fair grasp of both, for the sake of this post I'll limit my comments to the great crowd.
I'm going to include several quotes from original source material so you can check out my research. I apologize for the length of this post, but I felt it was necessary to prove that I'm not some crackpot that is drawing illegitimate conclusions from a small sampling of Watchtower literature. What I've found in my search is that the Watchtower organization does, in fact, speak directly to the question of the basis of God's final judgment on the great crowd. The tip of the spear lies in the answer to the question, "What is that basis of judgment which God uses to give everlasting life? Is it faith, works, or something else?"
Let's start with a 1985 article from the Watchtower. The reference provided is for the larger article, but I'll only quote a specific portion of it. (I take this approach in most of the quotes provided in this post.)
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*** w85 12/1 13-18 Declared Righteous as a Friend of God ***
Brought Up to Perfection
16 The "great crowd," who survive the "great tribulation," are not already declared righteous for life. We can see this from the fact that the chapter that mentions them goes on to say: "The Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life." (Revelation 7:17) So, even though God previously counted them as righteous compared to mankind in general and as his friends, they need additional help, or steps to be taken, so that they can be declared righteous for life.
17 During the Millennium, the enthroned Lamb, Christ Jesus, together with his 144,000 associate kings and priests, will apply a program of spiritual and physical "curing of the nations." (Revelation 22:1, 2) Such "nations" will be made up of the survivors of the great tribulation, any children born to them after Har-Magedon, and those who come back in the "resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15) All who put faith in Christ's blood and accomplish appropriate "deeds" will eventually have their names written in "the book of life."-Revelation 20:11-15.
18 By the end of Christ's Millennial Reign, those of earth's inhabitants who have shown that they accept Christ's ransom and will live by Jehovah's standards will have been raised to perfection. (Revelation 20:5) They will be as Adam was before he sinned. Like him, they will be tested as to their obedience.
"Glorious Freedom" as "Children of God"
19 Immediately after the Millennium, Christ will hand over to his Father a perfect human race. (1 Corinthians 15:28) "Satan will be let loose" for a decisive test of mankind. (Revelation 20:7, 8) The names of any who fail under test will not be "found written in the book of life." They will symbolically be "hurled into the lake of fire," which "means the second death."-Revelation 20:15; 21:8.
20 Those who prove loyal to Jehovah will have their names indelibly written in the "book of life," as being perfect in integrity and worthy of the right to everlasting life on earth. Jehovah himself will then declare them righteous in the complete sense. (Romans 8:33) They will have been justified to life eternal. God will adopt them as his earthly sons, and they will enter into the promised "glorious freedom of the children of God." (Romans 8:20, 21) Peace and harmony will have been restored to the universe. Reconciliation with God will be complete for "things upon the earth" and "things in the heavens." (Colossians 1:20) Jehovah's merciful arrangement of justification will have served its purpose. To the question, "Are you right with God?" every creature in heaven and on earth will be able to answer yes and add: "To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever."-Revelation 5:13.
By faith in "the blood of the Lamb," the "other sheep" are given an approved standing before Jehovah and are thus declared righteous for friendship with him and for survival during the "great tribulation." They will attain to perfection by the end of the Millennium. After the final test they will be declared righteous for life.
---------End of quoteCorvus,
There is quite a bit more in the entire article. A couple of things caught my eye here. First, the great crowd will not receive everlasting life until after the Millennium. Although we haven't discussed it in much detail, I'm pretty sure that is your position as well based on previous comments you made at the beginning of the thread. Second, there is mentioned a test at the end of the Millennium. A test. As you see in paragraph 20 above, "Those who prove loyal to Jehovah will have their names indelibly written in the 'book of life,' as being perfect in integrity and worthy of the right to everlasting life on earth." That does not sound like salvation by faith. It is the language of merit that the Watchtower is using here. I'll be honest here. When I read this, the first thought that pops into my mind is not that the Watchtower says you will be saved by faith. To the contrary, when I see things like "the final test", "those who prove loyal", and "worthy of the right to everlasting life", I come to other conclusions about what the Watchtower is trying to say. The Watchtower has said much more about this. Let's take a look at it together. This quote is an extended one because the pertinent pieces I want to see are at the beginning and end of it.
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*** w69 3/15 180-3 Declared Righteous ***
Declared Righteous
DECLARED righteous! How? Can such a thing be possible, when all of Adam's descendants, every one of them, have been unrighteous, imperfect and with a tendency toward wrongdoing? If honest, each one of us must frankly admit as did the psalmist David: "With error I was brought forth with birth pains, and in sin my mother conceived me."-Ps. 51:5.
According to the Bible, "sin" and "unrighteousness" are synonymous. (1 John 5:17) Thus the inheritance of sin from our first human parents on down to this day has labeled us all "unrighteous." And the undeniable evidence of this inherent sinfulness or unrighteousness is the fact that men continue to die. (Rom. 5:12; 6:23) Further, they are unable to relieve themselves of this fatal disability, for the psalmist again writes, under inspiration: "Not one of them can by any means redeem even a brother, nor give to God a ransom for him."-Ps. 49:7.
Yet the Bible shows that the unrighteous can be declared righteous! How is this possible? On what basis can there be a declaring of imperfect creatures righteous? Can Jehovah God, the great Judge, do this and still remain righteous himself?
THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD
Let us take note of God's "means of saving" sinful humans from the death-dealing effects of inherited sin. (Luke 2:30) He sent forth his Son, born of a woman, it is true, but not tainted with the imperfect reproductive seed of Adam, for "holy spirit" and "power of the Most High" impregnated Mary with perfect seed. (Luke 1:35) Therefore the one born of her came to be "undefiled, separated from the sinners." (Heb. 7:26) When he was grown to manhood he qualified as having that 'body prepared by God' for sacrifice on behalf of unrighteous men.-Heb. 10:5.
At the time of his baptism in the Jordan, Jesus was a perfect, righteous man. He presented himself willingly to enter upon a sacrificial course marked out for him by his heavenly Father. As he came up out of the water God's holy spirit came upon him, and by marvelous signs God acknowledged him to be his Son-not in the sense that he was God's human Son at the time of his birth, but now in the sense that he was "born again," "born from the spirit." (John 3:3-6) Thereafter Jesus was on his way back to the heavenly life he had enjoyed prior to his being sent forth to the earth.
Actually perfect in his human organism, Jesus held on to that perfection by reason of his integrity maintained under brutal test. "He learned obedience from the things he suffered," that is, he continued obedient to God even when openly exposed to hateful persecution by Satan and his agents. (Heb. 5:7-9) So God made the Chief Agent of salvation "perfect through sufferings." (Heb. 2:10) Not one flaw showed up. Jesus stood firmly righteous before God on his own merit-the only human ever to do so.
Those sufferings culminated in Jesus' shameful but undeserved death on the torture stake. Thereafter God raised him out of death, enabling Jesus to resume life as a spirit creature and to go his way back to heaven, there to present the merit of his sacrifice as an offering in behalf of sinful humankind. This act of God, resurrecting Jesus to life in the spirit, constituted a 'declaring of Jesus righteous in the spirit.' (1 Tim. 3:16; 1 Pet. 3:18) It was, in effect, a declaration by the heavenly Father that, despite all the contrary appearances, this Son who had undergone slander, reproaches and a cruel death, had fully accomplished the Father's will. That sacrificial death of the Son provided the basis for God to declare righteous those who would exercise faith in Christ. (Gal. 2:16) His willingly going into death would serve to cancel out the condemnation of death that had come upon the human family through Adam's disobedience.
THE CHRISTIAN CONGREGATION
However, God purposed to select a limited number from among humankind and adopt them into his family of spiritual sons, forming "the congregation of the first-born who have been enrolled in the heavens"-a congregation organized under its Head, Christ Jesus. (Heb. 12:23) Theirs is the prospect of life in the heavens as spirit creatures. But first they must prove faithful until death in a service that God assigns them while they are still alive in the flesh. That service is of a priestly nature-the ministry of reconciliation, whereby they must seek to aid men to get reconciled to God.-2 Cor. 5:18, 19.
In order to qualify these ministers of reconciliation for their service, and that they might be "born from the spirit," becoming sons of God, they must first have a right standing before God in the flesh, even as did Jesus when he presented himself for baptism. How could they attain this? Only by God's applying the merit of Jesus' sacrifice in their behalf immediately, forgiving them all their sins, and, by judicial act on his part in imputing human perfection to them, declaring them righteous. And, of course, God takes this action only with respect to those whom he calls to be members of "the congregation of the first-born" and who demonstrate faith in the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus. As the apostle Paul explains it: "It is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus."-Rom. 3:24.
Keep in mind that these are declared righteous in the flesh in order that they might be in line for adoption into the family of God's spirit sons in heaven. Their being declared righteous does not result in actual fleshly perfection, but they are accounted by God as being perfect humans; the righteousness is imputed to them. Thus God makes them acceptable for sacrifice to himself. So God now makes them his spiritual sons. As such, they must serve him, even to the extent of yielding up human life and all future prospects of life as humans. In a very real sense they follow closely in the steps of their Leader, Christ Jesus.-1 Pet. 2:21.
We have seen that after his loyal course even until death in the flesh Jesus Christ was "made alive in the spirit," "declared righteous in spirit," given immortality and incorruption. (1 Pet. 3:18; 1 Tim. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:42, 45) In the same way his spirit-begotten followers who prove themselves loyal until death are "declared righteous in spirit" by being resurrected as spirit creatures, and they, too, are made sharers in the divine nature. (2 Pet. 1:4) Then their righteousness is no longer an imputed righteousness, a righteousness derived from someone else's merit, but it is actual. (1 John 3:2) They are rewarded with incorruption, immortality.
"RIGHTEOUSNESS" IN PRE-CHRISTIAN TIMES
But what about those humans who worshiped God and were inclined toward righteousness in pre-Christian times? How did God view them? They were tainted with inherited sin. Adam had lost righteousness for himself and his offspring, and the time was still in the future when Christ Jesus would "shed light upon life and incorruption through the good news." (2 Tim. 1:10) How, then, could the holy God have dealings with those pre-Christian worshipers? Because of their faith.
It was because of their faith in God's promises, which faith was manifested by works, that men and women such as Abraham and Rahab were 'counted righteous' by God. (Rom. 4:3; Jas. 2:25) They were not given over to wickedness like the worldly people around them. They "walked with the true God," even as did Noah and many others. (Gen. 6:9) They were not, however, in line for adoption as prospective spirit sons of God. They looked forward to the time when God by resurrection would restore them to life on earth. God could and did deal with them and bless them because of their faith in his word of promise.
"RIGHTEOUSNESS" OF MODERN "GREAT CROWD"
Today there is "a great crowd, which no man able to number," of God's worshipers on earth, in addition to the remaining ones of the 144,000 who are called to the heavens. In vision the apostle John beheld them and heard them described as those who "have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:4, 9-17) They take positive action toward demonstrating their faith in the shed blood of Christ Jesus, the Lamb of God. They are spoken of prophetically by Christ Jesus as "the righteous ones," because God also counts their faith to them for righteousness.-Matt. 25:37.
But that "great crowd" of Revelation, chapter 7, are not at this time declared righteous with a view to being accepted as God's sons. Rather, the white robes in their case represent a temporary standing before God-one that will tide them safely through Armageddon's judgment execution upon a wicked world and bring them into Christ's thousand-year reign of peace. Under that new system of things they will be trained in righteousness and uplifted toward perfection in the flesh. Under that peaceful reign, too, multitudes will be restored to life on earth from their graves, including the loyal, pre-Christian worshipers of Jehovah God. But will any of such ever be declared righteous?
Yes, but that acceptance of them by Jehovah as his human sons, as part of his universal family, must await the close of the thousand-year reign of Christ. By that time Christ Jesus through his heavenly government will have uplifted obedient humankind to fleshly perfection, to the condition of human perfection enjoyed by Adam at the time God applied the test of obedience to him. Then is the time when Christ "hands over the kingdom to his God and Father" and when the Father determines who are worthy of living forever in happiness on earth. (1 Cor. 15:24-26) That determination, as in Adam's case, will also be made on the basis of a test-a test that is referred to in the words written at Revelation 20:7-10.
Those then holding fast to the clean worship of Jehovah will be "declared righteous." They will actually receive "the glorious freedom of the children of God," earthly children. They will be declared righteous, not in the spirit, but in the flesh. They will then have, not an imputed righteousness, but actual human perfection and the prospect of living everlastingly on earth under God's fatherly protection.-Rom. 8:18-21; Rev. 21:3, 4.
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I told you that the Watchtower had spoken directly about the topic of our discussion. You saw above, "On what basis can there be a declaring of imperfect creatures righteous?" Within this extended quote were a couple of highlights that I wanted to bring to your attention. First, the description of the basis for Christ's righteousness. " Jesus stood firmly righteous before God on his own merit-the only human ever to do so." I see the Watchtower understanding the concept of true personal merit in the person of Jesus. That's very important and I'm glad to see them acknowledge it. However, I don't see the Watchtower ruling out the possibility of anyone in the future ever standing righteous before God based on their own merit. Instead, I see them saying that he is the only one so far to do so. The Watchtower doesn't leave us in suspense on the answer to that question. In the question of anyone ever standing righteous before God on their own merit, as you can see at the end of the quote some things are said about the great crowd that echo the earlier quote. A final test is mentioned and the language of merit is used repeatedly. You will not be accepted as a son of God and receive everlasting life until you pass this test. When I hear things like that, once again, my mind doesn't hear that as "salvation by faith". Furthermore, we see this article going into even more explicit language than the previous quote when it says, " They will be declared righteous, not in the spirit, but in the flesh. They will then have, not an imputed righteousness, but actual human perfection and the prospect of living everlastingly on earth under God's fatherly protection." Does this sound like faith, and not works, to you? It doesn't to me. When I see the theologically loaded language of "imputed righteousness", I conclude that the author of the article was at least somewhat familiar with the battles during the Reformation about salvation. It speaks to me directly as a lay-student of the Reformation and makes a definite impression on me. They draw a distinction between imputed righteousness (the righteousness of another counted to my account) and actual human perfection. I can see salvation by faith in the concept of imputed righteousness. I cannot see salvation by faith in the concept of human perfection and passing a test and the Father using that test as the basis for determining those "who are worthy of living forever in happiness on earth." As before, this is the language of merit and works and not the language of faith.
Corvus, just to clarify to make sure that we're not misconnecting. I understand that the works the Watchtower is referring to here is not the works that you do today. Rather, it is referring to you passing the final test at the end of the Millennium, after you have been raised to human perfection. Nonetheless, I have to return to a question I mentioned earlier. Does the Watchtower teach salvation by faith, by works, or by something else? Based on these samples of Watchtower material, this is a description of salvation by works (namely your passing of the test at the end of the Millennium and not on any other basis). It is not a salvation by faith (remember I'm talking about your final salvation, not the things leading up to it).
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*** w65 3/15 177-82 Earthly Opportunity Opened Up by Resurrection ***
19 At the close of this thousand years of kingly and priestly aid comes the loosing of Satan and his demons from the abyss, to test all these perfected inhabitants of the earthly Paradise. By their conduct under this final, deciding test, the determination will be made of the two classes, (a) those who deserve everlasting destruction in "second death," and (b) those who are worthy of the guaranteed gift of everlasting life in the Paradise earth. In this manner those then under test will themselves prove whether theirs has been a "resurrection of life" or a "resurrection of judgment" (condemnatory judgment).-John 5:28, 29.
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Again we have the description of the basis for salvation for the great crowd. (I'm using "great crowd" generally of those who are not the remnant. If that's a stumbling block to the discussion, I am certain that we can find another term to describe the group.) Their conduct during the test is seen as the determining factor of their destiny. This does not sound like salvation by faith. When the Watchtower says things this way, I come to a conclusion based on reading all of these things together. Do you think I'm hearing "salvation by faith" in these? The point that seems to be consistently made by the Watchtower is that Adam did not pass the test of integrity originally, and that this test at the end of the millennium is parallel to that original test. Was that original test a test of faith or of works? It was a test of works, being a test of obedience. And if the test at the end of the millennium is the same kind of test (and I think the Watchtower builds the case that it is), it is a test of obedience also. I'm sorry Corvus, but that's not salvation by faith as we've been discussing.
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*** w65 7/15 447-8 Questions from Readers ***
Questions from Readers
If resurrected ones are to be judged on the basis of their actions after being raised from the dead, why did Jesus use the past tense in discussing this matter at John 5:28, 29?-H.M., Papua, New Guinea.
Those verses ŽJoh 5:28, 29 Üread: "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."
Jesus apparently stated the matter as he did because it would in this way cover the circumstances of "all those in the memorial tombs."
Those who gain heavenly life with Christ are judged on the basis of the works they do in this life. (2 Cor. 5:10) At the time they are resurrected to spirit life they are granted immortality. (1 Cor. 15:53; Rom. 6:5) They are not then placed on judgment, but are themselves empowered to act as judges with Christ. (Rev. 20:4) Theirs is a "resurrection of life," and the "good things" referred to in their case are those they did before they died.
But what about "those in the memorial tombs" who are resurrected as humans on earth? Will it be determined immediately after their resurrection that theirs is a "resurrection of life" or a "resurrection of judgment"? (Compare John 5:24 with ŽJoh 5 Üverse 29.) What good purpose would be served by raising from the dead millions of persons whose former lives were filled with vile deeds, only to tell them that they are vile and then execute them? The indication of the Scriptures is that when Ha'des gives up those dead in it, they will be 'judged individually according to the deeds' they do following their resurrection. (Rev. 20:13) The resurrection will afford them an opportunity to live.
As the apostle Paul wrote in Hebrews 9:27, 28, "it is reserved for men to die once for all time" due to Adamic sin, "but after this a judgment" that is made possible by the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ and that affords men the opportunity for "salvation." Those who formerly did good things will no doubt find it easier to continue in that course, and, if they keep on doing good right on through the final test following Christ's thousand-year rule, it will be shown that theirs was a "resurrection of life." Those who formerly did vile things will be granted the opportunity to change their ways and gain salvation, but in the case of those who do not do so, it will become evident, at the time of that final test at the latest, that theirs was a 'resurrection of condemnatory judgment.'
Now, what if Jesus had phrased his statement differently, saying very plainly that the deeds on which individuals would be judged would all be those performed after their resurrection? Had he done this, he would have been leaving out those who would gain heavenly life with him. Instead, by using an elliptical expression, he included "all those in the memorial tombs." After first referring to the resurrection as one general accomplishment, he apparently cuts through all the in-between details, takes a future viewpoint of the matter when one's past during the millennium must be judicially reviewed, and states the situation as it will exist at the time of the giving of final reward to those who are raised, namely, "those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."
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Once again we have the discussion of maintaining integrity through the test at the end of the millennium and of their acts as the basis of judgment. Corvus, how can I come to the conclusion that the Watchtower teaches that you are saved by faith when the point is repeatedly made that the basis of God's judgment at the end of the millennium will be a final test? I can't. There is a conclusion that I'm seeing but it isn't salvation by faith.
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*** w58 2/15 127 Questions from Readers ***
Questions from Readers
On page 84 of the book You May Survive Armageddon into God's New World we read: "The worship of Jehovah was not made impossible by the destroying of earthly Jerusalem's temple. His pure worship with spirit and truth continued on in his spiritual temple that was being built by the antitypical Solomon, Jesus Christ. That spiritual temple survived the horrible destruction of Jerusalem in the year 70. That temple is now near its completion, the last of its 'living stones' being yet under preparation on earth for being built into the temple in heaven. . . . The real temple of Jehovah's worship is destined to stand eternally as the habitation of his spirit."
Are we to understand that the Christian spiritual temple ceases to function as such at the end of Christ's thousand-year reign when priestly services are no longer required for mankind? If so, then in what sense does the real temple of Jehovah's worship stand eternally as the habitation of his spirit, as above stated?
By the end of the thousand-year reign of the King Jesus Christ all obedient mankind will have received the full benefits of the ransom sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. They will have been forgiven all their sins due to inheritance from the sinner Adam and will have been uplifted to human perfection in God's image and likeness. This will furnish the foundation for them to be justified to life eternal in God's new world after they have successfully passed the short season of trial when Satan and his demons are released at the end of the thousand-year reign in order to test the exclusive devotion of mankind to Jehovah God as the universal Sovereign. For the faithful ones whom Jehovah then justifies there will be no further need of the benefits of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ. He will therefore no longer serve as a priest with a sacrifice for them.
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The Watchtower describes those here who pass the test as "the faithful ones", meaning those who maintain their integrity during the final test and don't fall away. "Faithful" does not equate to "full of faith". To illustrate, if my wife remains faithful to me in our marriage, that doesn't mean she is full of faith in me. This kind of salvation is not a salvation by faith. Again we see the idea of being raised to human perfection followed by a test. That isn't salvation by faith Corvus. It's salvation by test passing. It's your own personal obedience that is in view, your own retention of human perfection during the test, and not faith in another or "imputed righteousness" or things like that as the basis of God's judgment.
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*** it-1 603-7 Declare Righteous ***
Other Righteous Ones. In one of Jesus' illustrations, or parables, relating to the time of his coming in Kingdom glory, persons likened to sheep are designated as "righteous ones." (Mt 25:31-46) It is notable, however, that in this illustration these "righteous ones" are presented as separate and distinct from those whom Christ calls "my brothers." (Mt 25:34, 37, 40, 46; compare Heb 2:10, 11.) Because these sheeplike ones render assistance to Christ's spiritual "brothers," thus demonstrating faith in Christ himself, they are blessed by God and are called "righteous ones." Like Abraham, they are accounted, or declared, righteous as friends of God. (Jas 2:23) This righteous standing will mean survival for them when the "goats" depart "into everlasting cutting-off."-Mt 25:46.
A parallel situation may be noted in the vision recorded at Revelation 7:3-17. Here, a "great crowd" of indefinite number are shown as distinct from the 144,000 'sealed ones.' (Compare Eph 1:13, 14; 2Co 5:1.) That this "great crowd" enjoys a righteous standing before God is indicated by the fact that they are described as having "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."-Re 7:14.
The "great crowd," who survive the "great tribulation," are not yet declared righteous for life-that is, as worthy of the right to everlasting life on earth. They need to continue partaking of the "fountains of waters of life," as guided by the Lamb, Christ Jesus. They will need to do this during the Millennial Reign of Christ. (Re 7:17; 22:1, 2) If they prove loyal to Jehovah through a final test at the end of the thousand years, they will have their names permanently retained in God's book of life, Jehovah thus declaring, or acknowledging, that they finally are righteous in the complete sense.-Re 20:7, 8; see LIFE (Trees of Life).
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Again we have the mention of the passing of a final test in order to be counted righteous for life. They are not yet declared to be righteous for life (and I anticipate that you find yourself in this situation), but will only be declared as such when they pass the final test. When they pass the final test. Not when they have faith in Jesus. Not even when they reach human perfection and have faith in Jesus. No, it's their own personal maintaining of human perfection (which they have been raised to during the millennium)
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*** w77 12/15 742-5 How Dependent Are We on Jesus Christ? ***
Besides being a judge of the living, Jesus Christ has also been empowered to judge the dead. The Christian apostle Paul told the Athenians: " has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead." (Acts 17:31) In order for Jesus Christ to judge the dead, he must be able to summon them before him, and this he does by resurrecting them. He himself said: "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out."-John 5:28, 29.
When will this be? This will be after the destruction of wicked humans at the "war of the great day of God the Almighty," the binding and abyssing of Satan and his demons, and the start of Jesus Christ's thousand-year reign. (Rev. 16:14; 19:11-21; 20:1-3) During this reign the human race is in the hands of Jesus Christ, and he judges them as to life-their attaining of perfection-or as to death-their meriting death because of failure to avail themselves of the provisions for life. The apostle Paul says that "he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing." (1 Cor. 15:25, 26) Christ has the authority to judge and the power to destroy those who are disobedient to God's laws and who refuse to respect the kingly rulership that God has given him. He even does away with death. Since sin is the cause of death, he removes all Adamic sin from those who are obedient to him. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Cor. 15:56) He brings them to perfection, and when he pronounces them perfect, they will be as perfect as was the first man Adam when created. During the thousand years, Christ does all this work. And, in fact, he is doing all judging now.-John 5:30.
----------End of quoteHow dependent are we on Jesus Christ? In regard to the receiving of final salvation for the great crowd, "he judges then as to life- their attaining of perfection- or as to death- their meriting death because of failure
" Once again we have the language of merit here, not the language of faith. Corvus, in the earlier parts of our thread, you said that God has two things in view as the basis for your final salvation, His calling and your faith. I don't see that here at all. I see performance, works, a test, meriting, human perfection.
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*** w52 11/1 670-1 Questions from Readers ***
Questions from Readers
Revelation 20:7 speaks of the loosing of Satan from the abyss after the 1,000-year reign. Does this final testing come in the closing years of the 1,000-year period, or after it? Does it come within the seventh creative or rest day of 7,000 years, or after its close? Also, does Christ turn the Kingdom back to Jehovah before or after the test by Satan?-W. G., New York.
Revelation 20:7 is explicit in stating that Satan's loosing is after the 1,000-year reign is over: "Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison." (NW) In this section we have previously shown that the 1,000-year reign of Christ and the 1,000-year abyssing of Satan and his demons run concurrently, that they start and end together, and that hence when it says of Satan that "after these things he must be let loose for a little while" it is conclusive that the final test comes after the 1,000-year reign has ended. (See The Watchtower, March 15, 1951, and Revelation 20:1-6, NW.) Then it is that Satan and his demons are brought forth from the abyss "for a little while".
Christ's rule for a full thousand years without any encroachment or interference from Satan and his demons allows for the accomplishment of the things foretold at 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (NW): "He hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be destroyed. For God 'subjected all things under his feet'. But when he says that 'all things have been subjected', it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the one who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."
All government and authority and power contrary to Christ's kingship will be eliminated, and at the last even the enemy death will be destroyed. That is to say, the death resultant from Adam will vanish by Christ's wiping out every evil trace of that death and its consequences in the human family. From then on the human family could live forever in their physical perfection. They would no longer die because they were descendants from Adam, all condemnation inherited from him being gone. Then it is that Christ turns over the Kingdom government to Jehovah God, that He might be "all things to everyone". It is necessary for Jesus to do this, because Jesus himself cannot grant everlasting life to this group of human creatures. The Scripture principle remains true that it is Jehovah God who justifies, or, in modern translation, "God is the One who declares them righteous."-Rom. 8:33, NW.
Now, if God is going to justify them or declare them righteous and worthy of everlasting life he must be the one that acts as a judge. Jesus, by his Kingdom for a thousand years, has acted as a screen over mankind so that the wrath of God might not be exercised against them while he is uplifting them to human perfection and sinlessness. Then at the end of the thousand years when he turns over the Kingdom to God he also turns over the human family for God's attention and for God to act directly as the judge of the human family. In order that he can apply a test on which he can base judgment for or against, he lets the Devil loose. He uses Jesus to loose the Devil because Jesus is the one who abyssed the Devil and demons. Out they come, and they put humanity to the test.
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"In order that he can apply a test on which to base judgment for or against, he lets the Devil loose." So the basis for God's judgment of you, whether or not you will receive everlasting life, is based on your personal performance during this test administered at the end of the Millennium. The basis for you to receive everlasting life is your own personal performance during this test. I think the most explicit statement that I've found that brings all of these elements together is the Watchtower publication "Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God".
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Eventually, by the close of the thousand years of Christ's reign and of Satan's imprisonment in the abyss, all the willing and obedient of Christ's earthly human subjects will be uplifted to human perfection. All traces of sin and of death that mankind has inherited by birth from the sinner Adam will have been wiped out; the "law of sin and of death" will have been abolished from all living inhabitants of the earth. This will mark the realization of the apostle John's vision: "And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha`'es gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. And death and Ha'des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire." Ah, yes, because of the priestly, governmental work of God's Messianic kingdom over mankind on Farth, "death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be any more. The former things have passed away." (Revelation 20:13, 14; 21:4) With what freedom the glorious earthly paradise will then ring!36 All mankind will then be, like the perfect man Adam in the garden of Eden, free moral agents, with no inborn sin or weakness or bad inclination to enslave them to a certain course of action. Now, without any disability but with vaster understanding and experiences, they can demonstrate to God directly that their unchangeable choice, their unbreakable decision, is to worship and serve the only living and true God forever on their paradise earth. Hence, before adopting them as his free sons through Jesus Christ, Jehovah God will subject all these perfected human creatures to a thorough test for all time. To this end Jesus Christ will turn over the kingdom to God the heavenly Father. (I Corinthians 15:24?28) The thousand years of Christ's reign having grandly accomplished its purpose, Satan the Devil and his demons will be loosed from their imprisonment of a thousand years in the abyss. How these unreformed, wicked spirit forces, invisible to perfected mankind, will proceed in trying to mislead as many as they can, if not all, Revelation 20:7?10 does not explain. But try they will!
37 Since their being hurled down to earth by the war in heaven that followed the birth of God's Messianic kingdom, "neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven." (Revelation 12:7, 8) Consequently, the ones to be tested then will be, not the holy angels of heaven, but only perfected mankind on earth. The Holy Bible indicates that, just as the perfect, enlightened Adam fell into sin in Eden, so an indefinite number of perfected, human free moral agents will let themselves be misled through selfishness. (James 1:1315) These willful rebels will be summarily executed, in a destruction as complete and everlasting as by fire, because they failed to prove worthy of being justified by the great Judge Jehovah God. Thus they fail to have their names forever inscribed on his "book of life." Revelation 20:15 had warned them: "Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire." They suffer forever "the second death." They have failed to vindicate the loving purpose of Jehovah God in providing salvation for mankind through his Son Jesus Christ and the Messianic kingdom. They receive the same everlasting punishment that is reserved for the very ones whom they let mislead them, Satan the Devil and his demons.?Revelation 20:9, 10.
38 Frustrated in his evil?minded design to mislead the entire race of restored mankind into destruction, Satan and his demons will be hurled into that "lake of fire" that symbolizes endless death. He has failed to undo the blessing and sanctifying of God's great seventh creative day. (Genesis 2:1?3) In utter defeat Satan the great Serpent and his viperous brood will lie prone, his head crushed under the heel of Jesus Christ and his heavenly brothers, the Seed of God's woman, whom Jehovah God will use as his executioner of the Serpent and his seed.?Hebrews 2:14; Romans 16:20; Genesis 3:15.
39 What a rapturous result follows this! All the realm of the living, both the limitless invisible heavens and the paradise earth, are forever free of wickedness in action, free of the presence and activity of wicked angels and men. Jehovah God will justify, declare righteous, on the basis of their own merit all perfected humans who have withstood that final, decisive test of mankind. He will adopt and acknowledge them as his sons through Jesus Christ. (Romans 8:33) They will be ushered into the glorious freedom of the sons of God. All earth perfected will be a paradise of freedom for humans sons of God. (Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God, 1966, pp. 397-400)
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Although that is an extended quote, I think it is worthwhile to see all of it in context. Particularly paragraph 39, which states as clearly as possible, "Jehovah God will justify, declare righteous, on the basis of their own merit all perfected humans who have withstood that final decisive test of mankind." As you can see earlier in the quote, this is due to the fact that you will have been perfected during the millennium and have been freed from the damaging effects, influence, and guilt of sin.
I mentioned at the beginning of this note that I was interested in discussions about salvation by works or by faith. Corvus, you have conducted yourself in an exemplary fashion during this discussion. I have enjoyed our exchange and hope that we can continue to dialog in the future, perhaps even in this thread. I do not want to end this in a name calling exchange about salvation by works. But I have to be straight up with you. Your final salvation is based on your own works, not on faith. I can't agree with the position that the Watchtower has taken. That's where it's at, not that it makes two shakes of difference to you. I don't know how or if this discussion will affect you, but I know that it has helped me understand the difference between what I know and believe about salvation and what the Watchtower teaches. Although many Jehovah's Witnesses may howl at the accusation made by evangelicals that the Watchtower teaches salvation by works, I have come to the conclusion that the Watchtower does in fact teach it. Your final justification before God will be based on your own personal merit, according to the Watchtower. That is salvation by works. I don't know what else it could possibly be called.
Corvus, at the beginning of this discussion we spent quite some time on establishing what you felt was the basis that God would use to judge if you would receive everlasting life or punishment. Do you still hold to the same convictions you expressed then, or has your understanding changed? One last question, given what the Watchtower has written as documented above, do you think that the debate between evangelicals and Jehovah's Witnesses concerning salvation by works has any grounds or not?
If you choose to continue this thread, I await your reply. I know you are busy with family and the anticipated arrival of your baby. This is an extended post for me, but as I said earlier, I did not do that with the intent of snowing you under a blizzard of material. I simply thought it was necessary to explain what I've found. I think the subject that we're discussing is an important one and that's why I've made a significant time investment in pursuing it.
You have my best wishes for a safe, healthy, and joyous arrival of your child.
Sincerely,
Dave
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All the bits are in the right places, it is about 16cm long, about half a foot long and is a little acrobat, it moved it's arms constantly throughout the scan. We could see the heard beating like the clappers (136 bpm)
) baby.
