C.R. and E.

 Blog : Podcast : Classics : MP3 : Jehovah's Witnesses : Sunday School : Bookstore : Ping Us

Boards

My church

Greek

Reformation Theology

Disputes:
  v. JW
  v. Rome
  v. ignert

Systematics

Pleasures of God

Theo Links

Apolo Links

Software

Hardware

Photo

New

Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry Boards | Rules | Help The Rest of CARM is Here >>>  Home Page

ANN ABO APO ATH BPRO BSTU CAT CD CHAR COC DEN EVAN * EVO HIST ISLAM JW MJ MOR ONE PAR SDA THEO TOP TRIN - 1 2 3 A - TEST WHINE YOUTH BOOK COMP FACES
  

Subject: "Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
Printer-friendly copy    
Conferences JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES Topic #708
Reading Topic #708
DaveSherrill click here to view user rating
Member since Apr-9-02
67 posts, 4 feedbacks, 8 points
Aug-14-02, 12:04 PM (PST)
Click to EMail DaveSherrill Click to send private message to DaveSherrill Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
"Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus"
 
   This got buried in another thread. I thought it would be best to break it out into its own thread.

Corvus wrote:
>
>WRONG! Everlasting life is everlasting
>life, once it is given it is eternal - it hasn't been given
>because the Son of Man hasn't sat down to judge the earth.
>And you won't lose the promise of everlasting life
>for making a "mistake" you will lose it for unrepentantly
>sinning - there is a huge difference between the two.

Corvus,
Would it be possible for you to identify when the Son of Man sits down to judge the earth? I'm not asking for a year or anything like that. Simply asking where in Watchtower chronology this event is expected to happen.

Sincerely,
Dave


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus Corvus Aug-14-02 1
     RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus DaveSherrill Aug-15-02 2
         RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus Corvus Aug-15-02 3
             RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus DaveSherrill Aug-15-02 4
                 RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus Corvus Aug-15-02 5
                     Bump DaveSherrill Aug-18-02 6
             RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus DaveSherrill Aug-19-02 7
                 RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus Corvus Aug-19-02 8
                     RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus desertfoxmb Aug-20-02 9
                         RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus Corvus Aug-21-02 10
                             RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus desertfoxmb Aug-22-02 13
                     Life - for Corvus msgoftruth Aug-21-02 11
                         RE: Life - for Corvus Corvus Aug-21-02 12
                             RE: Life - for Corvus msgoftruth Aug-22-02 15
                                 RE: Life - for Corvus Corvus Aug-22-02 16
                     RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus DaveSherrill Aug-22-02 14
                         No worries Dave nt. Corvus Aug-22-02 17
                     RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus DaveSherrill Aug-24-02 18
                         Bump - nt DaveSherrill Aug-26-02 19
                         RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus Corvus Aug-26-02 20
                             RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus DaveSherrill Aug-27-02 21
                             Stuck in a meeting DaveSherrill Aug-28-02 22
                                 Post Postponed until Labor Day DaveSherrill Sep-01-02 23
                             Corvus, how have you been mate? I posted... searcher Sep-02-02 24
                                 G'day Searcher Corvus Sep-02-02 26
                                     Thanks Corvus, how is the impending arrival? I know... searcher Sep-03-02 34
                             Salvation by Faith or by Works - ? for Corvus - Long Post DaveSherrill Sep-02-02 25
                                 Long reply :-) Corvus Sep-02-02 27
                                     Some observations Robert_V_Frazier Sep-02-02 28
                                         RE: Some observations desertfoxmb Sep-02-02 29
                                         RE: Some observations Corvus Sep-02-02 31
                                             RE: Some observations iknowhim Sep-02-02 32
                                                 RE: Some observations Corvus Sep-02-02 33
                                                     RE: Some observations iknowhim Sep-04-02 36
                                                         RE: Some observations Corvus Sep-04-02 37
                                                             Very well said Corvus. And I, as a Jehovah's Witness, can certify that... Jonny Sep-04-02 38
                                                                 RE: Very well said Corvus. And I, as a Jehovah's Witness, can certify that. iknowhim Sep-04-02 40
                                                                     RE: Very well said Corvus. And I, as a Jehovah's Witness, can certify that. Jonny Sep-05-02 43
                                                                         what the wt said is plain for all to see iknowhim Sep-05-02 48
                                                                 Um...Jonny, your ability to... JR Sep-05-02 42
                                                                     RE: Um...Jonny, your ability to... Jonny Sep-05-02 44
                                                                         Yes, but your explanation was... JR Sep-05-02 45
                                                                             Sorry, JR Robert_V_Frazier Sep-05-02 46
                                                                                 But, Robert, all he has to do is.... JR Sep-05-02 47
                                                                                     Ok, I will try to explain the word Jonny Sep-05-02 49
                                                                                         So the big question now is... Andyman Sep-05-02 50
                                                                                             who do YOU think the real Christians are? N.T Jonny Sep-05-02 51
                                                                                                 Please don't start this again... Andyman Sep-05-02 52
                                                                                                 You know who I believe are the real Christians, it is... Jonny Sep-06-02 54
                                                                                                 RE: who do YOU think the real Christians are? N.T Truthhurts Sep-05-02 53
                                                                                                 Hello. Jonny Sep-06-02 56
                                                                                         What a flip flop! JR Sep-06-02 55
                                                             RE: Some observations iknowhim Sep-04-02 39
                                                                 RE: Some observations Robert_V_Frazier Sep-04-02 41
                                     Brief DaveSherrill Sep-02-02 30
                                         RE: Brief Corvus Sep-03-02 35
                                             Final Salvation DaveSherrill Sep-08-02 59
                                                 The end of your rope? The end of this thread? DaveSherrill Sep-15-02 60
                                                     RE: The end of your rope? The end of this thread? Jonny Sep-15-02 61
                                                         RE: The end of your rope? The end of this thread? DaveSherrill Sep-15-02 62
                                                             RE: The end of your rope? The end of this thread? Jonny Sep-16-02 64
                                                 RE: Final Salvation Corvus Sep-15-02 63
                                                     RE: Final Post DaveSherrill Sep-16-02 65
                                     Photo-documentation of Watchtower Article DaveSherrill Sep-07-02 57
                                         RE: Photo-documentation of Watchtower Article DaveSherrill Sep-07-02 58

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic
Corvus click here to view user rating
Member since Feb-24-02
241 posts, 8 feedbacks, 16 points
Aug-14-02, 04:30 PM (PST)
Click to EMail Corvus Click to send private message to Corvus Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
1. "RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus"
In response to message #0
 
   G'day Dave

>Corvus,
>Would it be possible for you to identify when the Son of Man
>sits down to judge the earth? I'm not asking for a year or
>anything like that. Simply asking where in Watchtower
>chronology this event is expected to happen.
>
>Sincerely,
>Dave

Sometime after Armageddon according to Scripture. Daniel 7 says that it begins after the last beast is destroyed (7:26 - a beast in Scripture represents a government of some kind) Matthew 25:31, 32 says that it is after the worthless servant is thrown "into the outer darkness", at this time the Son of Man will take his throne and begin seperating the sheep from the goats. Revelation further expands on this and shows it to be immediately after Armageddon, which is of course the time immediately after the destruction of Satan's world and the corrupt kingdoms of mankind.

So in short it will begin immediately after Armageddon, when Christ has completed the execution of judgement against the kingdoms of man and Satan has been imprisoned in the Abyss. Exactly how long after or how long it lasts for is not indicated - though in the absence of any other indications we take the literal view that it is immediately after Armageddon and lasts for the whole millenium (ie "a thousand years is as a day and a day is as a thousand years" - that is, a celestial day rather than literally 24 hours).

Pax
Corvus.

Fęder ure žu že eart on heofonum; Si žin nama gehalgod to becume žin rice gewurže šin willa on eoršan swa swa on heofonum. Urne gedęghwamlican hlaf syle us todęg and forgyf us ure gyltas swa swa we forgyfaš urum gyltendum and ne gelęd žu us on costnunge ac alys us of yfele sožlice. (The Lord's prayer in Anglo-Saxon)


www.greektexts.0catch.com


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
DaveSherrill click here to view user rating
Member since Apr-9-02
67 posts, 4 feedbacks, 8 points
Aug-15-02, 09:15 AM (PST)
Click to EMail DaveSherrill Click to send private message to DaveSherrill Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
2. "RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus"
In response to message #1
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-02 AT 09:17 AM (PST)
 
>G'day Dave
>
>>Corvus,
>>Would it be possible for you to identify when the Son of Man
>>sits down to judge the earth? I'm not asking for a year or
>>anything like that. Simply asking where in Watchtower
>>chronology this event is expected to happen.
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>Dave
>
>Sometime after Armageddon according to
>Scripture. Daniel 7 says that it begins after the last beast
>is destroyed (7:26 - a beast in Scripture represents a
>government of some kind) Matthew 25:31, 32 says that it is
>after the worthless servant is thrown "into the outer
>darkness", at this time the Son of Man will take his throne
>and begin seperating the sheep from the goats. Revelation
>further expands on this and shows it to be immediately after
>Armageddon, which is of course the time immediately after
>the destruction of Satan's world and the corrupt kingdoms of
>mankind.
>
>So in short it will begin immediately after Armageddon, when
>Christ has completed the execution of judgement against the
>kingdoms of man and Satan has been imprisoned in the Abyss.
>Exactly how long after or how long it lasts for is not
>indicated - though in the absence of any other indications
>we take the literal view that it is immediately after
>Armageddon and lasts for the whole millenium (ie "a thousand
>years is as a day and a day is as a thousand years" - that
>is, a celestial day rather than literally 24 hours).
>
>Pax
>Corvus.

Corvus,
I'm assuming that the giving of everlasting life to the "great crowd" isn't immediately after Armageddon in your view, but rather that there is a time of uplifting to perfection those who came through Armageddon plus those who will be resurrected post-A. The giving of everlasting life to these people then probably comes at the end of this probable millenium, right? Is that the basic gist of it? Or have I misread something?

Is there a difference in the timing of receiving everlasting life for the remnant? Do they get it sooner, at the same time, or later than the great crowd?

Sincerely,
Dave


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Corvus click here to view user rating
Member since Feb-24-02
241 posts, 8 feedbacks, 16 points
Aug-15-02, 03:14 PM (PST)
Click to EMail Corvus Click to send private message to Corvus Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
3. "RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus"
In response to message #2
 
   G'day Dave,

Well as Revelation 20:5 says, "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed"(NASB). So it would appear that at least for some the gift of eternal life is not given until the end of the millenium.

Verse 4 and 6 tell us that there is another ressurection prior to this, during the time of the judging immediately after armageddon, this is called the "first resurrection" and consists of those who in the last days and during the tribulation who did not "worship the beast or receive its mark" and who "came to life and reigned with Christ for the thousand years." I don't know about others, but the phrase "came to life" reads to me that these people are both those who are resurrected and who survive armageddon but are not yet gifted with perfection, eternal life and/or immortality - I think it means that they are given this gift and this is what the phrase means - this matches what Christ said when he told that man, "let the dead bury the dead" in other words those who are not given (unbelievers) or promised the gift are the "dead", does that make sense?

Basically there are three stages, first are those promised the thrones and role of priesthood along with Christ, in Rev 20:4 it says "there were thrones and they sat down on them" now in the NASB the footnotes connect this to Matt 19:28 and the promise to the Apostles that they would "sit down on twelve thrones and judge Israel" and also to Rev 3:21 where he promises, "I will grant to he who overcomes to sit down with me on my throne as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne." After these people there is a resurrection of those who were "beheaded for their testimony of Jesus" prior to and during the tribulation, these two groups are given their reward at the beginning of the 1,000 years. The rest are resurrected "to a resurrection of life or a resurrection of judgement" and those who do not join the Devil at the end of the millenium or who do not "die at the age of 100" for sins (see Isaiah) during the millenium will be given their gift at the end of the millenium.

Now our interpretation of this is that the first ressurection consists of the annointed, those who are sealed in Christ and who become "sharers in the divine nature" and the second ressurection (the dead who come to life at the end of the millenium) are the "great crowd" of "other sheep", many billions who are given perfect eternal life on a perfected earth. Many ridicule this as creating two "classes" but that is not how we see it, it is simply about different rewards, the ones who live eternally on earth will exist in the condition that God originally made us to have, we will probably have close contact with him and his Son just as Adam did before he sinned.

I hope that wasn't too confusing.

Pax
Corvus.

Fęder ure žu že eart on heofonum; Si žin nama gehalgod to becume žin rice gewurže šin willa on eoršan swa swa on heofonum. Urne gedęghwamlican hlaf syle us todęg and forgyf us ure gyltas swa swa we forgyfaš urum gyltendum and ne gelęd žu us on costnunge ac alys us of yfele sožlice. (The Lord's prayer in Anglo-Saxon)


www.greektexts.0catch.com


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
DaveSherrill click here to view user rating
Member since Apr-9-02
67 posts, 4 feedbacks, 8 points
Aug-15-02, 03:35 PM (PST)
Click to EMail DaveSherrill Click to send private message to DaveSherrill Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
4. "RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus"
In response to message #3
 
   Corvus,
Thanks for taking the time for answering.

I'll be away from the puter tonight and probably most of tomorrow, but I promise to follow up with you. I've got a couple more questions, but I'll have to wait until I have more time to read what you've said and mull it over.

Sincerely,
Dave


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Corvus click here to view user rating
Member since Feb-24-02
241 posts, 8 feedbacks, 16 points
Aug-15-02, 04:04 PM (PST)
Click to EMail Corvus Click to send private message to Corvus Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
5. "RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus"
In response to message #4
 
   No probs, it is Friday here, I will be hanging round the net for a couple of hours and then I won't be back until Tuesday Australian time - my wife has her first ultrasound on Monday and I have the day off (Whoohoo!)

Pax
Corvus.

Fęder ure žu že eart on heofonum; Si žin nama gehalgod to becume žin rice gewurže šin willa on eoršan swa swa on heofonum. Urne gedęghwamlican hlaf syle us todęg and forgyf us ure gyltas swa swa we forgyfaš urum gyltendum and ne gelęd žu us on costnunge ac alys us of yfele sožlice. (The Lord's prayer in Anglo-Saxon)


www.greektexts.0catch.com


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
DaveSherrill click here to view user rating
Member since Apr-9-02
67 posts, 4 feedbacks, 8 points
Aug-18-02, 11:05 AM (PST)
Click to EMail DaveSherrill Click to send private message to DaveSherrill Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
6. "Bump"
In response to message #5
 
   Corvus,
Hope the ultrasound goes well. I'll get back to you this week.

Dave


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
DaveSherrill click here to view user rating
Member since Apr-9-02
67 posts, 4 feedbacks, 8 points
Aug-19-02, 09:52 AM (PST)
Click to EMail DaveSherrill Click to send private message to DaveSherrill Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
7. "RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus"
In response to message #3
 
   Corvus wrote:
>Now our interpretation of this is that the first
>ressurection consists of the annointed, those who are sealed
>in Christ and who become "sharers in the divine nature" and
>the second ressurection (the dead who come to life at the
>end of the millenium) are the "great crowd" of "other
>sheep", many billions who are given perfect eternal life on
>a perfected earth. Many ridicule this as creating two
>"classes" but that is not how we see it, it is simply about
>different rewards, the ones who live eternally on earth will
>exist in the condition that God originally made us to have,
>we will probably have close contact with him and his Son
>just as Adam did before he sinned.
>
>I hope that wasn't too confusing.


Corvus,
I'm pretty sure I'm following you. Concerning the giving of perfect eternal life on a perfected earth, what is the basis upon which God gives this? What does he have in view concerning each person that moves him to give them everlasting life? I have done some reading about it in the Watchtower literature and am trying to verify that I've properly understood it. Are you willing to give it a try? No need to be exhaustive. I don't expect anything of the sort. I'm thinking along the lines of: Is it something the person has/does/is or is God's consideration based on something outside/external to the person? Can you recall this being discussed ever? If you're not following the question then there is the chance that I'm not using the right vocabulary to ask the question. I'm confident that we can connect on this but we might need a couple of jump starts to get the conversation on track.

Thanks again for your previous answers. I appreciate it.

Sincerely,
Dave


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Corvus click here to view user rating
Member since Feb-24-02
241 posts, 8 feedbacks, 16 points
Aug-19-02, 06:25 PM (PST)
Click to EMail Corvus Click to send private message to Corvus Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
8. "RE: Everlasting Life - ? for Corvus"
In response to message #7
 
   G'day Dave,

The ultrasound went well (huge WOW!! factor ), unfortunately the little blighter had its legs crossed so we won't know the sex until it is born - oh well, it'll be a surprise All the bits are in the right places, it is about 16cm long, about half a foot long and is a little acrobat, it moved it's arms constantly throughout the scan. We could see the heard beating like the clappers (136 bpm)

>Corvus,
>I'm pretty sure I'm following you. Concerning the giving of
>perfect eternal life on a perfected earth, what is the basis
>upon which God gives this? What does he have in view
>concerning each person that moves him to give them
>everlasting life? I have done some reading about it in the
>Watchtower literature and am trying to verify that I've
>properly understood it. Are you willing to give it a try?
>No need to be exhaustive. I don't expect anything of the
>sort. I'm thinking along the lines of: Is it something the
>person has/does/is or is God's consideration based on
>something outside/external to the person? Can you recall
>this being discussed ever? If you're not following the
>question then there is the chance that I'm not using the
>right vocabulary to ask the question. I'm confident that we
>can connect on this but we might need a couple of jump
>starts to get the conversation on track.
>

Well technically it is something both without and within a person. The "within" is a living vibrant faith producing works - it is a myth that we base salvation on how many hours of preaching we do or that we have to work for salvation - works are in our words an "outworking of our faith" ie, works are a product of faith and not the other way round, you could be a special pioneer (120 hrs a month) and still be regarded as unworthy by God and conversly you could only preach occasionally and be considered worthy of salvation by him. The "without" is God'